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Why The Missional Movement Will Fail – Mike Breen

in ARTICLES, BLOG, MISSION

Guest post by Mike Breen

It’s time we start being brutally honest about the missional movement that has emerged in the last 10-15 years: Chances are better than not it’s going to fail.

That may seem cynical, but I’m being realistic. There is a reason so many movements in the Western church have failed in the past century: They are a car without an engine. A missional church or a missional community or a missional small group is the new car that everyone is talking about right now, but no matter how beautiful or shiny the vehicle, without an engine, it won’t go anywhere.

 

The Engine of the Church

So what is the engine of the church? Discipleship. I’ve said it many times: If you make disciples, you will always get the church. But if you try to build the church, you will rarely get disciples.

If you’re good at making disciples, you’ll get more leaders than you’ll know what to do with. If you make disciples like Jesus made them, you’ll see people come to faith who didn’t know Him. If you disciple people well, you will always get the missional thing.

Always.

We took 30 days and examined the Twitter conversations happening. We discovered there are between 100-150 times as many people talking about mission as there are discipleship (to be clear, that’s a 100:1). We are a group of people addicted to and obsessed with the work of the Kingdom, with little to no idea how to be with the King.

As Skye Jethani wrote in his Out of Ur post a little while back “Has Mission become an Idol?”:

“Many church leaders unknowingly replace the transcendent vitality of a life with God for the ego satisfaction they derive from a life for God.”

Look, I’m not criticizing the people who are passionate about missional – I am one of those people. I was one of the people pioneering Missional Communities in the 1980′s and have been doing it ever since. This is my camp, my tribe, my people. But it has to be said: God did not design us to do Kingdom mission outside of the scope of intentional, biblical discipleship and if we don’t see that, we’re fooling ourselves.

 

Mission Is The Umbrella of Discipleship

Mission is under the umbrella of discipleship as it is one of the many things that Jesus taught his disciples to do well. But it wasn’t done in a vacuum outside of knowing God and being shaped by that relationship, where a constant refinement of their character was happening alongside of their continued skill development (which included mission).

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The truth about discipleship is that it’s never hip and it’s never in style – it’s the call to come and die; a long obedience in the same direction. While the “missional” conversation is imbued with the energy and vitality that comes with kingdom work, it seems to be missing some of the hallmark reality that those of us who have lived it over time have come to expect: Mission is messy. It’s humbling. There’s often no glory in it. It’s for the long haul. And it’s completely unsustainable without discipleship.

This is the crux of it: The reason the missional movement may fail is because most people/communities in the Western church are pretty bad at making disciples. Without a plan for making disciples (and a plan that works), any missional thing you launch will be completely unsustainable.

 

Mission Is A War Zone

Think about it this way: Sending people out to do mission is to send them out to a war zone. Discipleship is not only the boot camp to train them for the front lines, but the hospital when they get wounded and the off-duty time they need to rest and recuperate. When we don’t disciple people the way Jesus and the New Testament talked about, we are sending them out without armor, weapons or training. This is mass carnage waiting to happen. How can we be surprised that people burn out, quit and never want to return to the missional life (or the church)? How can we not expect people will feel used and abused?

There’s a story from World War II where The Red (Russian) Army sent wave after wave of untrained, practically weaponless soldiers into the thick of the German front. They were slaughtered in droves. Why did they do this? Because they knew that eventually the German soldiers would run out of ammunition, creating an opportunity for the Red Army to send in their best soldiers to finish them off. The first wave of untrained soldiers were the best way of exhausting ammunition, leaving their enemy vulnerable.

While this isn’t a perfect analogy, I sense this is a bit like the missional movement right now. We are sending bright-eyed civilians into the battle where the fighting is fiercest without the equipping they need, not just to survive, but to fight well and advance the Kingdom of their dad, the King.

 

Mission Devoid of Discipleship = Failure

The missional movement will fail because, by-and-large, we are having a discussion about mission devoid of discipleship. Unless we start having more discussion about discipleship and how we make missionaries out of disciples, this movement will stall and fade. Any discussion about mission must begin with discipleship. If your church community is not yet competent at making disciples who can make disciples, please don’t send your members out on mission until you have a growing sense of confidence in your ability to train, equip and disciple them.

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Here are some questions I have leaders I’m working with ask regularly:

Am I a disciple?

Do I know how to disciple people who can then disciple people who then disciple people, etc? (i.e. does my discipleship plan work?)

Does our discipleship plan naturally lead all disciples to become missionaries? (not just the elite, Delta-seal missional ninjas)

Also, be sure and check out Part 2 of this article from Mike Breen.

Join the conversation:

  • What do you think about Mike’s perspective on missional movements in the West?
  • What is your struggle with discipleship and disciple-making?
  • What questions would you ask Mike in response to his article?
  • What are some success stories you would share about discipleship and disciple-making that you have seen?
  • What are some resources you would recommend on discipleship and disciple-making?

Verge Network also has several helpful discipleship resources available to help you grow in discipleship and disciple-making:

Mike Breen: Why The Missional Movement Will Fail – Part 2

Neil Cole: Making and Multiplying Disciples | VIDEO

Alan Hirsch: Disciple-making | VIDEO

Francis Chan: Making Disciples vs Memorizing | VIDEO

George Patterson: 1st-Century Discipleship | VIDEO

This Is Discipling | VIDEO

Neil Cole: Can Groups Be Missional and Make Disciples? | ARTICLE

This blog post is part of a 6 week series related to the release of Mike’s new, re-written edition of Building a Discipling Culture: How to release a missional movement by discipling people like Jesus did, which shows how they made disciples in a truly post-Christian context. If you’re interested in picking it up, click here.

About The Author

Mike Breen has been an innovator in leading missional churches throughout Europe and the United States for more than 25 years, and leads 3DM, a movement/organization that is helping hundreds of established churches and church planters move into this discipling and missional way of being the church.  Twitter: @mike_breen

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  • Guest

    Put me in the camp where we’re discussing mission and not discipleship.

    This is humbling because I know it innately, yet am so excited by the mission of God that the prospect of envisioning and sending out people trumps discipleship (even though those aren’t mutually exclusive).

    Much to think about, repent of and readjust.

    • Bobby Capps

      I agree with almost everything that he said, HOWEVER, I don’t agree that
      “discipleship will always yield missional’, at least not the current version you
      see in most churches… if that were true the church would be freaky
      missional. Instead, all they do is sit around in their ‘boot camps’ waiting for
      some sergeant to whip ‘em into shape.

      What I do agree with is that discipleship SHOULD
      yield missional life, but since in reality it does not.. his premise is
      pragmatically flawed…

      Why? Glad you asked.

      Because discipleship ala 21 century church is IN
      THE BUILDING IN A CLASSROOM, not in the real world in life.

      I think the missional thing may fail but my reason
      would be much more sinister (primarily because the church would rather listen to
      lectures from gifted speakers than be “discipled”), but even then I believe it’s
      worth the shot to try discipleship that is out there in real life with others
      who are hurting like us rather than the model that has failed miserably to
      produce disciples at all.

      • Tboe

        I don’t think he meant 21st century discipleship. Christlike is the standard against which to measure our “plan”. Of course OUR version will fail, because WE are flawed. This is a call to return to BEING the “C”hurch in our everyday lives AND our “c”hurches in a very intentional way.

        • Bobby Capps

          Sure, Christlike iss the stanadrd, but the MOVEMENT is a reaction to a undiscipled and therefore non-missional church.

  • vineman

    if Mike is attempting to say we need both (mission and discipleship) then yes – we better figure out a discipleship path. but Hirsch and others have argued (well) that discipleship is not a classroom activity.  part of the discipling process is mission – that wonderful little auto metaphor breaks down if the engine runs smoothly but there are not tires on the car just as well as if there is no engine.  the former has been the western church for  . . . 

    even Willow Creek, which has a strong discipleship culture, found out through the Reveal study that something was missing – perhaps it was a church culture that was not immersed in mission.  The missional movement is in reaction seeking to swing the pendulum back to a healthy place of mission and discipleship in union.  Mission is not a purpose driven step 4 or 5. . .  in the discipleship process, but must be built into the DNA of discipleship from the beginning.  the churches Paul founded were pretty messy and trying to figure out discipleship on the way (a healthy does of persecution didn’t hurt either – weeding out the sign in pencil from the sign in blood crowd..) Natural Church Development – all staves on the barrel need lengthened.  kudos for Mike to remind us of the discipleship stave – but any one short stave lets the water run out anyway.

    • Anonymous

      I agree!

  • http://twitter.com/RevGregFisher Gregory Fisher

    I have been  in ordained ministry for 42+ years and 21 years on the front lines of mission ministry. Some parts of the article resonate with me: I sense this is a bit like the missional movement right now. We are sending bright-eyed civilians into the battle where the fighting is fiercest without the equipping they need, not just to survive, but to fight well and advance the Kingdom of their dad, the King. 

    WOW!  I have watched that for 21 years now as bright-eyed, idealistic, “gonna do everything right” recruits enter and leave the “field” like a revolving door. Usually in tears and with significant mental health problems that remain stuffed down and hidden for years afterwards.   If not that, then the powerful, positive do-gooders who show up with a bow and quiver full of arrows.  They shoot their arrows (ministry) in every direction and where ever an arrow lodges a target is painted around the embedded arrow and declared a success. Even if it lodges in another someone’s ill conceived mission.  Now, that just ain’t so…and, most times more damage has been left behind than actual good. 

    When you write: The missional movement will fail because, by-and-large, we are having a discussion about mission devoid of discipleship. Unless we start having more discussion about discipleship and how we make missionaries out of disciples, this movement will stall and fade. You got THAt right.  And, guess what?  Donors have got that much figured out!  If ya say you did your schtick in front of 6 million people but nobody can find a lasting result 6 months later…you had BETTER begin to think over your discipleship approach. 

    • mark_abc

      Amen Gregory!

  • http://legograffiti.tumblr.com Matt Brock

    I agree. But do you think we all have different definitions of what discipleship really is? Even against the standard of Christ-like discipleship, it’s implementation can be left to interpretation based on lots and lots of variables. I fear that we tend to treat the symptoms of bad discipleship (which, I guess, is a little easier to define) way too often. Stale worship, impotent mission, legalistic and liturgical prayer life – these things are the wilted stems of ineffective discipleship that we spritz and drown in sunlight, when they really just need better soil (that was dramatic..).

    I don’t want to paint a picture like discipleship is some mystical, unattainable, hippiefest thing. I definitely believe it’s the foundation, but just a really loaded word.

    Mike, do you think that a better understanding and consensus on what discipleship actually is would lead to a revitalization and sustenance for the Missional Movement?

  • http://twitter.com/jasonegly Jason Egly

    There are some good points in the article, but I believe true missional church IS about discipleship. I mean that IS our mission, right? To go and make disciples? I think what Mike is attacking is missional for the sake of simply “being missional,” but that’s not what is meant by true missional church. 
    Missional church is not a “movement”, in the vein of the church growth movement or contemporary worship movement or seeker church movement, and I think that is the key misunderstanding here. Missional church is about organizing the way the LIVE our lives to BE the church in such a way that we realize we have been sent as agents of the Mission of God (John 17). That “movement,” my friends, IS the Church, and it cannot and will not fail. (See Matt 16:18.)

    • http://twitter.com/jasonegly Jason Egly

      For the record … Let it be known that I am a fan of Mike Breen and I do understand the point he is making here — a good one. I think the problem is one of semantics … people are operating from different definitions of “missional” and “discipleship.”

      • mark_abc

        Right on, Jason.  That definition needs to be generated and adopted by the local Body of Christ–so all are on the same page about what they are about and what they are going to do about it.  The Priesthood of all Believers arises from those believers–not from someone or some idea outside that Body–they create it themselves and own it and manage it for their purposes in their place of service.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=751620369 Peter Mular

    These two are not mutually exclusive.  God’s mission is to make disciples.  Missional churches are simply returning to the business of making disciples.  All churches have discipleship!  The question is what kind of discipleship does your church have?  Churches that are missional will not allow people to be disciples in name alone.  

    • http://twitter.com/jasonegly Jason Egly

      You nailed it, Peter.

    • http://twitter.com/verilypress lindy marie abbott

      sorry, all churches do not have discipleship… many have little. it is more about doing and being than knowing God. it is more about crowds and activity and building and programs than about ‘you and God’ relationships.

      We try to console ourselves to think — no, I am discipling. I mean we are discipling .. we have classes, we teach Bible verses, the preacher talks about messages from the Bible… Hey, that’s our discipleship.

      But it isn’t.

      Discipleship is being naked before God alone and letting Him tell you what is next. Discipleship is being ready to lay down your life, your everything, and to be available to say, “Yes, God!” regardless of the consequences… Discipleship is walking out on a limb… and it is obey even if it makes you feel or look odd/different.

      Missional church is just another name for another movement or program championed within the church – but being a disciple costs everything. It is when you are willing to risk everything you think is dear, everything you like is right, everything you think is church…

    • Rev. Lipp

      I am working on a doctorate project with this very issue. We are not doing discipleship right in our churches or at all. I am a youth pastor and have been working with young people for 15 years. I found that there is no clear process or plan for discipleship and therefore we simply don’t do it. I am attempting to create a simple plan to connect adults with youth through mutual spiritual gifts for an intentional time of discipleship that will include serving together outside and inside the church. My hope is this will be just the beginning. I hope to see our youth serve alongside of adults and learning from mentors so they will go out into the mission field (school, work, community) and serve.

  • k-girl

    Would someone please give me the definition of discipleship as it is being used in this discussion?  And how is the process of discipleship accomplished (as it it being used in this discussion)?  Just want to have my thoughts straight.  Thanks.

  • Phildburton

    So we create a community environment that provides Word, Worship, Presence and from that outflow Mission happens… 

    Discipleship happens, as we lead others by communicating and demonstrating The Gospel. Faith and works produces the character of Christ in me and those I lead. 

    Mission is the natural outflow of my relationship with Christ. I appreciate the challenge to stay on coarse Mike… Trying real hard to do that here in Germany.

  • Danny

    Discipleship comes first, from this you get people on mission e.g. Jesus modeled this, end of story :) , Jesus never went around establishing churches or even missional communities as such, but he invested 18 months of his 36 month ministry time making disciples.

    … as a disciples of Mike so to speak :) … it is my understanding that discipleship and the making of discipleship is about being accountable to the learning moments when God is speaking to you and showing you stuff and then taking this seriously by not only reflecting on it in your huddle with others but developing your plan of action and then being accountable to do it!  As Mike as always said – what is God saying to you and what are you going to do about it?  Again forget about starting a missional community, first get on with making disciples in an accountability group, and IF you don’t know how to make disciples ie imitate the life and ministry Christ then find someone who does and learn from them. 

    • Steve Allen

      Danny, interesting comment… “but he invested 18 months of his 36 month ministry time making disciples.” How did you figure out it was only 18 months?!?!?  Never heard those number before… 

    • Guy

      Danny, did you say “Jesus never went around establishing churches or even missional communities as such,…” Where did you get this heresy?  Did you get that from some book you read?  Or do you think you found that in the Bible?!  Hold on… huh?… hmmm…. oh, I see… yes… OK…  Yeah, I supposed you did…  :-)

        After spending time in and around orgs that push church planting and movements of them, that subtle nagging in my spirit pushed me to look in scripture and find out what Jesus said HIS task was for us.  Oddly enough it’s only recorded 3 times that Jesus ever used the word “ekklesia”.  He spoke of His Kingdom/Dominion and tasked us with making disciples.  Our problem is the church has become syncretized with secular humanism and we think intelectual assent and knowledge are paramount so that when we think “discipleship” we think head knowledge void of impact on where our feet take us and what our hands do…  If we simply take even a cursory look at how Jesus discipled, we see knowledge and wisdom being imparted through hearing, going, doing and never merely through the impartation of information.
        So, if we were to carry out scriptural discipleship, we would see that discipleship=missional.  The Great CoMISSION IS to make disciples.  If we do this the way Jesus did it, then ekklesias(churches), which are local expressions of His Soma (Body), will be birthed and within those more disciples of Jesus will be nurtured.  Never should our first and primary focas be on creating missional/Gospel.church communities.
        Thanks or your post brother.  It is encouraging to know there are others out there calling us to our scriptural Priority and allowing Him to lead us.

      • Gary Clark in Shady Cove

        Guy, I am encouraged by your passion for following Jesus so much that you went back to count the times He used the greek word which is translated church and I believe litterally means th gathered, assembled and sent out ones.  It is most facinating that we have gathering, assembling, and beng sent in the description of disciple making disciples who are the members of the church Christ built and by the way the same church that He promised would not be prevailed against by the “gates of hell?”.  This is a very encouraging study as well.

        The Church is missional if it is the church Christ built.  If it isn’t in mission for Christ, it is not the one He built.  I might add if it has not already been said, the Holy Spirit who was sent to live in the body of everyone who received God’s gift of grace (forgiveness of sin by grace through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ who offered Himself as the sufficient final sacrafice to God on behalf of and in stead of all who have sinned and fallen short of God’s perfect holiness…) does the work we are not able to do by our own power without Him. 

        When I hear the words Missional Communities, I know this is the body of Christ being sent out where ever God has placed us to live and have our being so that the light of life He shined into the darkness of our sin bound souls freed us to be reflectors of His light living in us and having His way with our lives so that everyone who is still in the chaines o sin and locked up in darkness will have a chance for the light that shines in and through us will penetrate the darkness that holds them captive. 

        I know I must be atleast tied for run on sentence of the month, but I have been getting lost in the Jesus John, Peter and Paul passages again this week. 

        Guy, I will pray that God continues to bless and keep your heart guarded in Christ Jesus. 

        Danny, I will pray that God continues to bless ad keep your heart guarded in Christ Jesus. 

        Everyone else who has weighed in over the past 5 (I guess) months is being added to my prayers for God to continue holding youall and myself in His capable care, guiding us according to His perfect will for our service, worship, passion and conviction from Him, until He takes us to be wth him this side of the resurrection or the other side.  I am not partial, though I am enjoying being a disciple of Jesus who is sent out (24/7) to make disciples of all people, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Teaching them to obey everything He has commanded and without fear, knowing that He is with us until the end. Or as the modernday prophet Buz Light Year would say, “To Infinity and Beyond” Not Kidding, it’s a great sermin series I am working through…

        In closing, I have been getting the greatest amazement out of practicing as I go out and come home, 1 Peter 2:15. There is peace in ther storm as long as Christ is near the water..Amen?  Amen! 

        • Gary Clark in Shady Cove

          Gary, This is Gary correcting my 1 Peter reference so that no one will think I don’t own or ave not read my bible.  1 Peter 3:15 will replace the error of 2:15 in your first post.  Any way God’s still working with you, Gary

        • mark_abc

          This is my brother Gary–whom I love deeply–and who speaks the word of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!  I see His light shine through this man, and the light of the Lord shows me both my strength and my weakness in the same light.  Thank you Lord for my most loving Brother–and his passion for your Word alone!

    • mark_abc

      Perfect stuff Danny!  Creating an accountability plan between yourself and God–then working that plan with your buds to get prudent feedback–and then ulitmately checking in with God about how its coming is the ultimate test.  The beauty of working the plan in your community is that the Holy Spirit brings us so many other sources of feedback–most without any prescribed views of who we are–that much of the feedback can be considered direct hits from God himself.  Bottom line–you got to put it on paper, and then you own it–and as Habakkak 2:2-3 says–now the Herald can run with it!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tom-Herbert/1172495559 Tom Herbert

    I LOVE WHAT MIKE SAID IN THIS ARTICLE!  LORD TEACH US HOW TO PRAY; TEACH US HOW TO FIX OUR EYES ON JESUS AND OUT OF A HEART OF LOVE AND THANKFULNESS GO FORTH TO FULFILL THE MISSION HE HAS GIVEN TO US. 

  • http://twitter.com/Mike_Breen Mike Breen

    Hey everyone! Great conversation happening over here. I’m in the midst of writing a followup post due to all of the responses, but just wanted to say one thing before posting that early next week. I think discipleship and mission are interconnected…to be a disciple means you must be missional (at least in the way Jesus saw disciples functioning). What I’m arguing is that we have a large number of people who are trying to be missional but forgoing a lot of the other aspects of what it means to be a disciple. In other words, their desire to do the work of the Kingdom FOR God is trumping their desire/practice of being with God for God. And because of that, we aren’t seeing very fruitful mission (after all, it was Jesus who said when talking of fruitfulness, “Apart from me, you can do nothing”). It isn’t that people doing mission aren’t engaging with discipleship, it’s that I think, by-and-large, it’s incomplete and thus unsustainable. More to come in the followup post. Cheers everyone!

  • http://www.chriscocca.com The Daily Cocca

    folks have been saying it, but yes:  mission is the engine that drives the church.  discipleship follows mission. the Incarnation is mission.  the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is mission.  worship is mission, and mission is worship.  we become disciples as we mission (I’m using it as a verb).

    • a body

      I think that prayer/relationship with God is the engine of the church, practising this relationship more and more pleases God the most.
      Making disciples is the mission that Jesus gave to the church, so all the disciples will make disciples and doing so they will accomplish the mission. Any mission organisation or church who do not have this mission (of making disciples-God lovers) and do not have fruits of discipleship they lost something on the way.
      Do not be mission minded – doing something for God
      But be God minded – allowing Him use you and do what He wants trough you.

  • Jdycus2024

    Could not agree more Peter! I just got into the missional kick and always assumed mission and discipleship went hand in hand anyways…

  • Ray

    The frustration I have is that there is so much written about the need and the importance of discipleship….but very little written about the solution to this problem. I believe there are many people out there wanting to disciple others, but can’t find a simple method or process to use.
    Everybody has got down the verbiage…but who has the tools?

    • Etang5

      Hey Ray,
      The funny thing about discipleship is that it’s like every other thing in the church, if you’re looking for tools the best one is the Bible.  I’ve been a part of the mentorship ministry at my church where in a couple years it went from nobody to more than 1/3 of the church and growing.  It’s like you said, mentorship/discipleship it’s something that people are eager for and don’t know how to go about.  I encourage you and those around you to just go and be Christ for someone and encounter them and share with them and help them grow, just like Christ did and you’ll see there is no magic to it other than the wonder of the Holy Spirit.  If you go and love people and desire to do what it takes to have them encounter God as you have, there is nothing more required.  The method is obedience and love.

      • Guy

        Agreed Etang5!  The best book is the Bible, the Person and Mentor to get help from is the Holy Spirit.  Amazingly simple!

    • Scott

      “Real Life Discipleship Training Manual,” by Jim Putman.  Good stuff!!!

    • Guy

      There are 3 primary pillars that support sustained incarnational community where genuine discipleship can happen.  1. Proximity 2. Intentionality 3. Time.  All of these things are incessantly under attack by our enemy in the busy American culture.  You don’t need a book.  The early disciples didn’t have Bibles, help books or all the others “aids” available to us.  They had God’s Holy Spirit and an understanding of God from the OT writings, and a first hand look at what God looks and acts like in the flesh.
        Solutions are as simple as 1, 2, 3…  1. and 2. Find a group of other believers who are willing to forsake this culture’s (the world’s) expectations(lies) and invade a lower income neighborhood together so you can walk to each other’s houses and really do life together.  In your comings and goings get to know your neighbors and invite them over to dinner and other community gatherings. 3. By invading a neighborhood where houses are cheaper, you can cut back on work hours or get jobs that demand less time.  Now you can afford to be a single income family and have a constant presence in your neighborhood to help people when needs arise.  While executing 1. 2. and 3. simply ask God’s Spirit to guide you.  If the Holy Spirit is God, is He not able or trustworthy to guide us?  Who’s in with us?  If you are looking for a neighborhood to join like this, come to Maple Street in North Little Rock, Arkansas 72118 and join us.  Or give me a call 501-690-6378  We are currently praying that God will send laborers into the field and maybe you are one of them.Grace,Guy

      • Caffiend

        Love the model, love the Word - centered approach…totally valid model…but not the only one and not better or worse than others. 

        Heres the thing…

        When we say the mission of the church, we think the poor and down-trodden of society (and Biblically we well should)…but why do we define those terms in the worlds definition and not the Scriptures?

        Yes, ‘invade’ a neighborhood, be responsible, be good stewards, make a presence and get involved in the messiness of people lives’ as an in-road to the Gospel…but can we please stop presenting that as a better or greater model of ministry and acting like sufficient ministry can’t happen in other models as well, or present them as old school and out of touch?

        Case in point…I have been called into a fully supported ministry position in rural OH. Sold out of my ‘baby’ for pennies on the dollar to go into full-time ministry…(with NO regrets)…and am ministering alongside others to an audience of (generally speaking) either self-sufficient, upper-middle class, pick-yourself-up-by-your-bootstrap folks who are fine-thank-you-much, who say they love Jesus and know all about God because they have been in church all their lives…but can’t quote a verse of scripture unless it’s been hammered into them via banners hanging off the railing at sports events…or down-and-outters (very little ‘middle class’ here).

        The issue I’m driving at here is that we are quick to look at neighborhoods and say, ‘those are poor folks…just look at what they don’t have’…and we measure that by the standard of the local demographic and not by scripture. 

        A man is poor only if he does not know Christ…regardless of class or creed. Scripture calls him ‘miserable above all men, morally bankrupt, actively at war with God, hopeless, without purpose, headed for eternal separation from God.’

        So, please, keep pursuing the poor financially (because we are certainly commanded to go out and seek the lost, wherever that may be found)…but please, lets not insinuate that neighborhood transformation is the way to do ministry.

        Ministry is about the transformation of hearts…work that we cannot do…work that we do not deserve to participate in but are given the gift of the ability to do so.

        This discussion of the mission of the church too many times veers away from the centerpiece of our ministry…the simplistic Gospel that by faith saves a man form his sins and then minsters to him as he is conformed into the image of his Savior.

        Keep invading neighborhoods…but do so with an infectious love of the Gospel knowing that you are prayed for by rural pastors…i will expect the same.

        • Fmajor007

          Love what you’re saying Caffiend!!!

          *All* need the Gospel (obviously…., but this is all too often overlooked as cliche’) and different Folks require different strategies/skills/giftings. Unfortunately, as you point out, we keep our “target market” too small.

        • Guy

          The transformation of a community is a byproduct of God’s Spirit transforming enough of a population to sway impact it in a larger way.  Community transformation can be a hope and a resulting desire but it should never be our primary focus for sure.

            I’m not trying to define who the poor are.  But the from the prophets through to Jesus all had a lot to say about the literal poor and God’s heart for them.  I’m not trying to create a model focused only on the physically poor but simply put, Jesus spent most of His time with the poor and downtrodden.  He wasn’t hobnobbing with the wealthy folks.  He spent time with the commoners and we can be sure it wasn’t because the wealthy of His day were not any less spiritually bankrupt than the common man.  My point about invading a lower income area has as much to do with simplified living and more convenient community (within walking distance of your community of faith) and providing more time as it does being around physically poor folks.  My family and I were missionaries for 8 years in Thailand.  I traveled around the world as a photojournalist shooting stories and in my travels I saw many who were physically poor but spiritually richer than most people I know anywhere.  The American bubble of prosperity that incases our minds makes it very hard to view those in physical poverty and separate it from spiritual poverty I agree.  We unconsciously link physical poverty to sin and prosperity to God’s favor.  It is a distortion of our world view that is very hard to shake…  I agree with you that we are too easily swayed form our task of making disciples of and with the Gospel.  He is central and even if we begin to focus on the results of transformed lives, community transformation/church planting/safer neighborhoods/etc etc, they become idols and we are as far off as one could be.  My point in my post is from being honest about the things the enemy has tricked us into making too important and too busy.  We live to far apart to for optimal community, we are not intentional about our true commission for making disciples and we are just too busy to have time to devote to things that matter in eternity.  Here’s an issue.  We are told that as the world sees that we have love for one another, they will know that we belong to God and are His children.  Whether we are in a poor community, middle class or rich neighborhood, the world will not see us loving each other because the vast majority of the time when we are together, it isn’t during normal life… it is in a building they will never go to…  I’m not trying to establish an exclusive model, I’m looking at scripture, my own experiences and that of others and then looking at our culture and trying to be honest about the war that the enemy’s is waging against the Body of Christ with the world around us.  I’m convinced that we are as unknowingly surrounded by filthy idols just as much as Israel was when the Cannanites were allowed to persist with their godless idols.  We are at war and we must recognize the enemy, and his tools or we will continue to be powerless and ineffective regardless of our model.

    • Guy Lyons

      I agree with you Ray.  But, I’d rather people at least be talking about discipleship rather than church-planting…  One significant issue for people trying to answer this question is that most people have not themselves been discipled biblically.  What we have is a church culture raised to believe that talking about and learning about and having information about is the same things as being and doing about…  A friend of mine talked about how his dad taught him to work a metal lathe.  He watched his dad from a distance and then tried it on his own.  He would bind the cutting tool into the spinning metal and it would jump from him hand.  After this happened several times his father came over and stood behind him and put his hand over the son’s hands which held the cutting tool.  Then the father guided his son’s hands and they began to cut the spinning rod.  The son began to get the feel for how much pressure would cut and how the angle of the cutting edge would shape the piece.  After working this way the father’s hands began to loosen and slowly he was able to remove his hands all together and my friend was cutting and making things on his own.  What we have are teachers teaching about how metal working is done but very few have the skills themselves to even know how to guide those they are “discipling”…  Discipleship takes time, time we don’t if we are chasing the American dream and paying of dept from our upgraded houses and new cars and credit cards.  We MUST learn to live on less so we can work less and have more time to go out and minister and love the hurting world.  We MUST simplify our lives and live together in deliberate communities of faith.  Then, as we love on others we take our disciples along so that they are trained in more than just information but will see their teacher stumble and stammer and call on God’s Spirit to provide words and wisdom where his fail.  Discipleship in our Humanistic-Syncretized-Christianity is viewed largely as intelectual knowledge and correct and tidy theologies.  True discipleship is very far from tidy and concise.

        The tools are the Holy Spirit.  The variety of issues to address while loving on others will be as varied as the number of individuals and there’s no tools that can help us know what is in the unseen of a man’s heart.  But God’s Spirit is able to guide and put words in our mouths, or silence behind closed lips to meet people where they are so it isn’t us and our strategies who are engaging those in need, but rather it will be God’s Spirit Who uses us to minister and love those He sends us to.  This can’ t be taught in a classroom…  It can only be fostered and developed with the gentile and guiding hands of those who have learned to have ears to hear and eyes to see as God’s Spirit guides…

      • Kay

        I couldn’t agree more with you Guy!!
        I am a porch sitter by nature, but society tells me I’m lazy. I wait…wait for the opportunity to disciple the next person God has for me. I leave that margin in my life, so when someone needs me, I don’t feel rushed or stressed to take the time to instruct. We don’t see that much anymore.
        Words are inspiring, but time spent one on one with someone is priceless!! They walk away with a nugget of gold that no one can take away from them…or me! My husband and I have been in the ministry for over 22 years and discipleship is one of the main reasons why.

    • Jenncarson

      Add Simple Discipleship by Tom Cockerleece to that list.

    • Cliffgehret

      There are no hard and fast rules to any of this stuff. Stop kidding yourself and start praying and studying Scripture. God will bless your desires and use them for his purposes.

    • Jeremymckim

      Jesus – just listen to Him and trust His work – regardless of how good you think the ‘product’ is of such obedience. It will never look good in the flesh – never look transformational to our eyes – it’s the hidden work of the Spirit. Without the Lord drawing us to Himself, we’ll walk right past the Lord and blow Him off as a fool. We work too hard to make ‘mission’, ‘church planting’ and ‘discipleship’ look smart and attractive with all the conferences led by slick dressed speakers and artsy websites. Meanwhile, Jesus is over there in the trench covered in mud, shivering in the cold – and very few take notice.

      • Tim

        Amen!

      • studioGats

        that’s a speach of truth! . . .

    • http://www.facebook.com/glyn.henman Glyn Henman

      Try Masterplan of Evanglism by Robert Coleman

    • http://twitter.com/jahziel_kishz jahziel_kishz

      your HEART!.. your passion to let the people know who the TRUE and LIVING GOD is!.. that will then be your gReatest tooL!.. we are made to GO and make disciples so worry not about how!.. the HOLY SPIRIT will be your guide and GOD’s plan will always prevail! ;)

    • Lori Hudnall

      Precept ministries international has all the tools you will ever need, They specialize in studies off all the books of the Bible book by book.

    • Kevin W. McCarthy

      Have you seen The Discipleship Journey by Dave Buehring? Great tools, in depth, and Biblical. It stimulates the much need long-term conversation with an agenda that could endure a few months or years depending upon the pace of those engaged in the content. I highly recommend it.

  • Chris Garcia

    I know this is a long thread, but why hasn’t discipleship been defined? Have we considered the culture of the person, their personality, their characteristics, their past?

    Or should our discipleship be to follow after the fruits of the Spirit? Is that why Jesus said, “you shall know them by their fruits?” Can we judge effective discipleship based on the progress of Galatians 5:22 (Fruits of the Spirit defined), and if that person is (and us of course) are making progresses and influencing those around us. Of course in order to produce fruit, one has to be connected to a source…which reminds me when Jesus said…”I am the vine, and you are the branches, apart from me you can’t do anything!”

    So with that said, I think the Missional Movement can succeed, because it is going back to the basics of living within the community and if we have this viewpoint of discipleship that was pointed out, then why not?? I mean it all goes back to Jesus, and what He did on the cross. If we are to live off the fruits, there are give and takes in our sinful nature that need to go away (more like takes “less of me and more of Him”). I hope this article was a rhetoric question to keep us in check, and not a declaration because if that’s the case…then wow, didn’t know we could out do God and His plan for the last days!

  • Steve Allen

    True discipleship happens as we are on mission, right?  Being together, learning together, practicing, failing…  ?!?!?

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  • http://twitter.com/mattstephens268 Matt Stephens

    Mike, have you read Chris Wright’s The Mission of God?  Many in the missional movement believe that the mission is MORE than “making disciples”, but is actually producing a society (including structures) that reflects the shalom of God… that the Kingdom of God is more than the Church and more than a collection of individual disciples striving to be like Jesus.  This stems from more of a “whole Bible theology” approach than a “let’s just look at Jesus and emulate Him” approach.  A disciple is one who applies him/herself to learning to obey ALL that He has commanded (including the mandate to make disciples)… which, by implication, includes the whole of Scripture properly understood.

    • mark_abc

      A true Disciple is nothing but the reflection of the Word of God–and thus the Light of Jesus in the world.

  • Anonymous

    I have never bought into the perspective that mission is one of the things a disciple does, or as Mike writes, “Mission is under the umbrella of discipleship as it is one of the many things that Jesus taught his disciples to do well.” No doubt they were taught, but mission is the heart and soul of all which disciples do, the hub around which all discipleship activity points. Disciples are missionaries. Discipleship is missionary activity – words and activity, non-verbal and verbal. To delegate it as one of several or many things that disciples do allows Jesus ultimate purpose for coming to this earth, Luke 19:10, to become one of many equal tasks of discipleship. Whether a disciple serves in a church, works in bank, teaches in a school, employed in government – all they do and say drives towards missionary activity.

    • mark_abc

      You sound like another–or the same–Paul Mueller I know.  Yes–this is the heart and soul of each of our callings–all things in and of the church must revolve around this primary purpose–being the Body of Christ in the world where ever we may be and with whom ever we may be with–strong and weak, rich and poor, believer and none–let Christ be the light.

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  • Snodgrassjacob

    the best place to make disciples is on mission. our training of leaders in a post-christian world must be geared to dealing with the mission. 

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  • Anonymous

    Not sure why you imagine the missional movement as not being a discipleship effort.   To me discipleship means being missional, being church means being missional, being a Christian means being missional.  What’s failing is being church as 1) club, 2) religious Wal-Mart, 3) self centered people who worship their forms of liturgy or polity but not Christ.

    • a body

      Discipleship means getting to know/closer to God, but mission is going in to the world for and with God. There are different stages and directions and effects. A disciple will always do mission as a result of what he is and his values, but a missionary (as far as I know) fails in making disciples almost all the time and to SEEM to be effective or busy with God’s work they make and organise projects and so on…
      It is sad but I know many western missionaries and western minded local missionaries, and I do not see anyone of them doing discipleship, still I recognise that they are busy with themselves and some of involvement which can be reported and still receive their support. Most sadly is that our local believers look to them and start to be like them: making projects, writing reports and no discipleship (no effect). Now in Moldova, Europe, there are just several men (as long as I know in the entire country) who make disciples and they are strong in the Lord and active for the Lord.

      • Anonymous

         I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, I just don’t see how the Missional Movement is antithetical to what you are saying?  As I read Missional material (i.e. Reggie McNeal and others) they are fully endorsing the discipleship model.  I think the problem with Western Christianity is the false notion that the people we have in the pews are already Christian.  In 21 years of pastoral ministry I’m fully convinced that we’ve inoculated people with a small strain of Christianity so that they don’t get the real thing (thanks to William Willimon for that analogy).   I fully agree with discipleship as the training ground for mission.   The problem as I’ve seen it is we have a lot of training sessions, i.e. Bible study, prayer groups, etc, and never get to the mission.  I think you disciple people by being in mission with them and then unpacking what that was all about.  It has to go hand in hand.   I think the Missional movement is a great shot in the arm to accomplish that work of the Spirit.  I don’t believe it will fail, I believe it’s a simple call for the church at long last to be the church. 

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  • Topdogg1013

    I think both mission and even disciplemaking can become idols if they take priority over our 1st love – Christ. Christ seems to only be the source of for a model or process or an example instead of the real source of any and all mission, serving, disciplemaking. Christ is the engine, not the pursuit of him (discipleship). Why live our lives for things that will fall away some day? Mission, movements, disciplemaking, serving the poor and oppressed, evangelism, etc … Are all temporary. And when they fall away, we will still have Christ. Let’s make sure we are pursuing something eternal and the other stuff will be byproducts of being an heir w/Christ, the bride of Christ and the Dwelling place of God – because He will do them instead of us trying to do them.

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  • prmiller

    I hope with all my heart that Mike Breen’s prediction will not be fulfilled. However, as I read the comments here, I sense the great urgency on the part of many to: 1) Define our terms, 2) Understand the distinctions of those terms, and 3) Know how to carry out the implications and responsibilities of those terms. As has been stated earlier, and should be our foremost passion, we must do all in our power to anchor ourselves in that most important of truths: to know God and desire and nurture that relationship above all others, then knowing God’s commands for us, draw on God’s power, wisdom, and mind to go and do all that has been set out before us. Perhaps then we will see all these critical issues converge, coalesce, and then we may see remarkable things unfold. God is the Wisdom, the Bible is the handbook, the Holy Spirit is the power. We are the ones God uses to help bring about changes in the world. Can it be any clearer than that?

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  • Levijbowman

    Greatly lacks in being backed by scripture

  • http://twitter.com/SnortingHorses Dan Benson

    I think the problem is that we too often think of discipleship as a program and as something that happens when someone converts and enters the church circle. We put them in a class or something. I think maybe the way to think of it instead is as a one on one friendship that starts with people wherever you and they are. “There is no circle/spoon,” to coin a phrase from The Matrix. Jesus said wherever two or three are gathered there I am. So create a two or three friendship and be with Jesus and follow him. As a discipler, don’t get out front. Jesus only said and did what the Father told him. We should do the same. Follow his lead and don’t trust in programs.

    • mark_abc

      Amen Dan–this is the core of the fruit of the spirit–two or more coming together in the presence of the Holy Spirit to determine what there is to be done amongst themselves that would be pleasing to God–and calling on one another to be accountable for that calling with both affirmation and admonition.  It’s in every moment in every place with every person whom we come into contact with–the only variable is whether or not we invite the Holy Spirit into each of those moments/engagements–and constantly listen to what He may have to say to us in those moments.  The others around us simply provide us access to additional means of hearing what the Lord may have to share with us–especially when we invoke the power of prayer in seeking that listening.

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  • Marshall

    I think the answer here is balance…scripture is clear that time is of the essence and that we are in a full on battle with things unseen. Scripture is also clear that we need to be good stewards and act in a wisdom that comes from outside ourselves. To aimlessly huck bodies into the fray without any training and discipleship (i am still waiting on a good definition from any camp) is as equally irresponsible of the church as it is for us to hide behind needing to get our processes and training programs right before we are ‘comfortable enough’ to send anyone out. Ministry is in some form or another always going to have elements of ‘building the plane in midair’…and it is imperative that we are engaged in whatever programs we have going on or don’t having going on with the total understanding that we are here to bring glory to another. It is amazing enough that we have been ransomed by Christ, and that simple fact alone should draw us to understanding that all of our conjecturing and poking around is in the end going to be foolishness in the face of simple reality that God is still in the act of using us sinners to call other sinners to Himself for His glory. I like the tension created here and the discussion…but it’s time to get to work.

    • mark_abc

      Amen–let’s get to work and let the learning begin–with sufficient feedback loops that we can process together the fruit of that learning and discern the truths and the deceptions we are sure to encounter as we engage!

  • Lindy

    My comment will be a bit off topic, but something that’s been on my mind for quite some time.  Shouldn’t there be some way to measure a person’s 1. original intent and 2. their ongoing intent.  Perhaps intent isn’t the word I should be using, but as my capacity to scramble for perfect meaning escapes me right now, I hope it’s leading you in the right direction.  This is my personal issue with missionaries, and I’ve known a few.  I perceive a missionary as someone who lives among the people sharing the; message, love and deeds of Christ.  How then can we support “Missionaries” that live FAR above the standards of those we are trying to reach.  I can’t wrap my head or heart around supporting missions for fear of simply supporting an alternative lifestyle.  Of course there are those that truely live and share the inspiration of Christ, but there are also those that have chosen this “lifestyle” for their personal accomplishment.  Perhaps this should be part of this conversation. 

    • Guy

      Jesus said the measuring rod was the fruit individual’s life.  And, corporate fruit will look like the collective fruit of it’s congregate.  I agree with you from my own personal experience as a “rich” missionary living in Thailand for 8 years and then returning back to the states to see the disparity between those in “ministry leadership” and those being ministered to.  It is hard for someone who can’t pay their bills to hear a man with a beefy salary telling them to give more money and preach about God’s faithfulness in times of adversity…  That’s largely why God has told my wife and I not to seek jobs or ask for help and rather pray daily to seek His Kingdom in our lives and trust Him to provide us with our daily needs.  We work plenty but not for hourly wages… He has been faithful in this for 5 years since leaving our mission org.  Have you read “When Helping Hurts”?  It is a good book on the problems when the “rich” worldview colides with the “poor” worldview.

      Grace,Guy

    • Gary Clark in Shady Cove

      Lindy, you my be right on topic and if you are a christian/disciple of Crist/ … you may be a missionary god has sent into your community to reach the people whee you live.  Now if you are living above the life style of the people you were sent to reach and disciple, then you are the only one who could andwer the question you posed, perhaps?

      God bless you and you searching?

      Gary

    • mark_abc

      Intent, purpose, action and results (fruit) are all interwoven.  You are asking the question about clarity in each of these–and how do we affirm that our understanding of our calling, and an assurance that how we play that out is congruent with God’s purposes, intentions, and desired actions for ourselves.  We all want the answers to these questions–and in our culture especially–we want them now, primarily due to our fear of being wrong.  That is all grounded in our unconsciousness about our lack of faith in God.  You also point out the impact our unconsciousness about adopting worldly trappings of comfort may predominate our depth of investment in being God’s agent in the world.  Very complex questions because of the complexity that has arisen in this world–part of Satan’s plan to confuse our focus and detract attention from God’s purposes for us.  As part of my feedback in earlier posts–these can only be attended to through an interworking of the Body of Christ with one another mutually seeking out the truth for each of us and for our Body that has come together for a mutual purpose with God’s design for that Body.  Having the question on your heart is the first step–finding a Body willing to work out those questions together is the second–seeking God’s hand as a partner in that search is next, the rest will be guided by Him–should we fully trust His ways as prescribed in His Word.

  • http://twitter.com/willardheath Will Heath

    I like what Chris Garcia said – Discipleship needs to be defined.  Here are a couple of thoughts…

    God is missional.  We are intended to be conformed to the image of Christ.  Therefore, we are created to be missional.

    Maybe I am too simplistic, but I honestly can’t see how a person can be a disciple who is not also missional.

    The problem I see is that much of the discipleship material available seems to be slanted towards behavior modification (Give, Pray, Evangelize, Fellowship, Serve, etc…)  

    In many contexts, being “missional” is nothing more than another form of behavior modification.

    In this case, I agree that the “missional movement will fail.”

    I don’t think the missional philosophy is broken.  I think the dominate view of discipleship as behavior modification is broken.

    • mark_abc

      Discipleship must be grounded in ‘spiritual disciplines’ and the test of that grounding is the engagement with fellow believers–and non-believers–so that they may test your faith and your understanding–and through those engagements grounded in prayer with the Father–you may hear the thrust of and trust in His Word through the Holy Spirit.  Simple is sane!

  • Phil

    Okay guys, here’s my simplistic take on discipleship (based on a David Watson / Neil Cole sort of perspective).

    I define discipleship as every day learning to trust the Savior for His promises and obey Him in His commands.  If I can teach someone to boldly trust and faithfully obey what Scripture says with regularity, I think s/he is well on their way to maturity.

    So my strategy is (1) do a simple Bible study alone each day. (2) At the end of the week I determine from the text if the Master has something for me to obey, something for me to trust Him with, or some truth He wants me to understand deeper, and I write it down.  (3) I get together with one or two other buddies that have been doing the same thing with the same passage, and the 3 of us pray for each other for the thing each has written down, hold each other accountable if it is an action, etc.  (4) Rinse and repeat the next week.

    This becomes the foundation for each of the 3 of us to daily study His Word and hear what He’s saying to me, with the explicit intention to trust and obey.  One week the Holy Spirit is convicting me of my bad attitude at work, while the same text is encouraging my buddy to trust Him for a job.  Next week the text challenges me to help my neighbor work on his deck, while my buddy is convicted about helping his wife more with the kids, etc.

    No one has to be a Bible scholar.  When we get together we just share what the Savior has shown us and we pray/support one another.  Then we agree how many verses the next section for the coming week will be.

    If one finds another guy to do it with and starts their own, I consider it a multiplication.  Since he is being gradually conformed to the Master’s image in the context of regular work life, home life, and neighborhood life, I consider it missional.

    If the Holy Spirit wants him to start/join a particular organized/group missional activity, this will come out of the inner conviction that will occur as he studies the text and listens/obeys the Savior.  I realize that missional typically implies community but the urge towards that ideally would come out of the trust/obey meme as a conviction.

    Just my 1 cent (deflation).

    • mark_abc

      Not that is one very effective practical application of being a Disciple–and is a foundation for doing any disciple building or missional community development work.

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  • Eric Pirozok

    John 8:31, “Jesus said to the people who believed in him, “You are truly my disciples if you remain faithful to my teachings.”

    John 13:35, “Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.”

    John 15:8, “When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father.”

    Luke 14:25-27, “A large crowd was following Jesus. He turned around and said to them, If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. And if you do not carry your own cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciple.”

    Luke 14:33, “So you cannot become my disciple without giving up everything you own.”

    John 6:66, “At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him.”

  • Pastorlynnmalone

    Going on a mission, or doing mission work is an outgrowth of THE mission of the Church, which is to make disciples. And yes, mission work can be evangelistic–in fact, it should be evangelistic–which, in my estimation, is where discpleship begins.

  • Braveheart Gary

    At one time I was a teacher of fifth and sixth grade kids, about 30 in the room, and we covered all subjects for botha covered Namath, science, English, art, music, geography, etc. I also drove the school bus and coached all sports plus put out the year book and raised money to buy books. I loved it and it is where I learned how to disciple. It was impossible for me to do everything for the kids so I had to recruit smarter kids to serve as teachers helpers. Each one reach one. I was obsessed with outcomes! Could the kids write, do math, read, sing, play basketball? If not, they were not disciples.

    Churches have no idea about what outcomes they want or need. Their desired outcomes are nickels, noses and numbers not doing and being. One person speaking to thousands is not discipleship it is a personality party.

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  • Tricia L

    People in church are struck and surprised by compassion within the church to others. The non-judgemental, I’ll-stand-with-you, you-don’t-need-to-struggle alone — kind. There’s something from our culture that has infiltrated the church. Put a smile on your face and buck up and act Christ-like when no one around us seems to know what that is. Few will cry with us, put down their stones, stop looking at their watch and be completely present. That’s Jesus personified. Any other Jesus I don’t want. How many of us get the feeling that others are scooting to the other end of the pew when we are in a real struggle? Nearly all of us. Not even the pastoral leadership gets this. Pastoral care went out the window when? How do we intend to be people of justice when we ourselves can’t tell our stories safely? You can’t give what you ain’t got. When you got it, you give it. That’s mission that comes from a real place. That’s attractive.

    In the long run, without discipleship, it has the affect of abuse. The anti-discipleship.

    Recommended reading by people who’ve only focused their professional careers on this:

    Church As a Safe Place
    Meeting Jesus Together
    Becoming More Like Christ

    by Peter Holmes and Susan Williams (UK)

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  • http://twitter.com/verilypress lindy marie abbott

    I so agree with you in this article. Your words written here is exactly what I have been witnessing and failing to communicate… I tend to make a mess of things when I open my mouth.

    It seems that everything I am reading on the website is like making me think… “where were you guys when I was mumbling and stumbling and unable to give voice to this concern?”

    And then I laugh a little – at myself and – then at God –

    He wanted to teach me … He didn’t want me to learn to follow another. He wanted me to be true to Him regardless… even if it mean I was the odd one out… He wanted to prune me … He wanted me to stop going, doing, trying.

    He wanted ME! and He wanted me to WANT HIM!

    I couldn’t do that until I got alone.

  • http://profiles.google.com/riverman38 Lamar Carnes

    MIke you are right on! Our example can be no better right? Our Lord Jesus did it right and we should also. With just 12 disciples God changed the entire world. Has done so many times throughout its history as He has brought great awakenings. It all begins with disciples who submit to Him and go forth into the harvest fields of the world, but making other disciples who are warriors and followers of Jesus and ALL that He commanded!!

  • Andre

    What is all this about being missional or being part of missional movement? Evangelism and discipleship are a life style we all need to live out, not an activity or a movement. Our job as prophets, evangelists, apostles, pastors and teachers it to prepare the people of God in living out such a LIFESTYLE. Training others with regular accountability , vision casting, personal example, practice. walking alongside those we train, and making plans together. Make trainers, not hearers nor spectators.

  • Ryan

    Not a fan of this article. Breen gives the missional movement more weight than even the proponents of it would and commits the straw man fallacy here. It is important to remember that the missional community group is not the end-goal, it is it is the current tool and method that the Holy Spirit is using to make disciples. Just because the Holy Spirit may decide to use a different tool to accomplish disciple making in a decade, it doesn’t mean that the missional movement “failed” when it gets replaced; it will just cease to be as useful as it once was. I would like to add that the missional movement is currently extremely successful and so I partner with the Holy Spirit in this method.

  • Mike

    What is a disciple? When is a disciple formed enough to reproduce/replicate? What are the costs of sending too early? Risk/Reward? I think we have struggled to answer these questions and have blurred issues of basic beliefs, ministry training, and actual discipleship/spiritual formation. Fraudulent discipleship is the equivalent of ministry training that seeks to equip people to share their faith, teach them foundational beliefs, train them in ministry skills, and send them to go replicate the process. Essentially getting someone converted is the worldwide goal. I am very pro evangelism but it is not the totality of the Great Commission nor the focal point of discipleship. It is part of the fabric of being a follower of Jesus. Discipleship is a process of becoming…becoming beloved sons and daughters, becoming increasingly righteous in our physical reality even though we are positionally righteous (my opinion), becoming a body of Christ that blesses the World in Word and deed, becoming formed in love, becoming an advocate of the fatherless/widow/alien/oppressed, becoming members and contributors of the One Body, becoming immeasurably more than a list of things we shouldn’t be or shouldn’t do…Jesus will form in us and touch the World and the Church as we take our part in His unfolding Revelation of His Greatness. He is the Center of the story, we and our salvation/restoration are not. Mission centeredness is vastly incomplete and yes…please do not replicate…there is plenty of that out there already.

  • Theo

    Making disciples (among other things) rather than manufacturing a Sunday morning play is basis of being missional. We should quit playing semantical games which only undermine others who are trying to help people move forward with being missional (and disciple-maker-making-able – which is much harder to say…)

  • Susan

    Mission Devoid of Evangelism = Failure

    Unfortunately, there is this mindset that “making disciples” as Jesus said in the great commission, is all about “discipleship”. Jesus was saying, “make disciples” which equals “make converts”…in other words, proclaim the gospel orally….THEN teach them to OBEY all that I’ve commanded.

    Displacing evangelism with discipleship isn’t going to fix the problem.

    The real problem is that the missional movement has largely done away with evangelism.

    People have to be converts before they can be discipled.

  • F

    Your wrong!!! Missional church is the best!!

  • Brian Considine

    Discipleship must be rooted in the Mission of God for the nations and the supremacy of Christ. I think too often we have a fuzzy idea about what Discipleship really is all about because too many don’t get the story we are in. While discipleship must bring people to faith, in order for discipleship to multiply disciples must be infused with apostolic passion. Such passion can only come from saying as Paul did, “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” 1 Cor 2:2. Paul knew the story he was in.

  • Britton Wesson

    We are thinking WAY too hard about discipleship. Whatever happened to “as you go” from Matthew 10? If you volunteer with students, take a kid with you “as you go”. Making time to have intentionally biblical conversations with those in it circles – that’s “as you go”. Go and study the Young Life model of contact work. Great SIMPLE method of discipleship.

  • Mark

    Jesus said: ““I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 you can’t disciple people running around taking and writing about it. you got to be where they are, put on the towel and do life with them. you do that with a group size of people that fits your giftedness under God’s leading and they will do the same because that’s what they experienced. mission and discipleship are inseparable – they do not happen in some vacuum separately. You got to be with the sheep LOCALLY not on our many leader platforms but together with them in their mundane platforms. As the old saying goes, you can’t make what you don’t put your own hands on. I’ll paraphrase E. M. Bounds its not more stuff, but more sacrifice. It appears generally speaking that we’ve got more and more access to everything in Christianity and yet it seems that we’re getting less and less of the most crucial thing we’ve been sent to do? I do agree with Mike’s evaluation so my suggestion would be go to a church that has a couple of people hungry and rebuild or plant a church by taking a few people who know Christ and preach to those in america who don’t know Christ. leave the 99 for 1 or better yet grab the 99 and get them going in about 49 directions with you!

  • Brett

    here’s the thing. discipleship happens as you are on mission. there are too many bible studies taking place without one on one discipleship happening outside in the community. Have you have ever noticed that when people do go on mission, Scripture comes to life for them? why? because in the Scripture you do not see cushioned pews and sunday school classrooms in the book of Acts. These people were learning on the go, therefore, the best thing we can do for our people is exalt Jesus through being missional.

  • Steve

    I know what MIke is trying to say, but I think the car analogy is misconstrued. I believe the engine is The Gospel. The spiritual horsepower needed to generate both discipleship and mission come from repeatedly hearing and truly believing that message.

  • bigdaverino

    I personally think there may be a little too much parsing of words here. The mission is discipleship, and discipleship is the mission. If you do discipleship apart from mission, you get an arrows-in smugness. If you do mission apart from discipleship, you get a hyper-relevant coolness, devoid of spiritual power. The solution is both-and. Be a disciple on mission. Is there any other kind?

  • http://adammclane.com/ Adam McLane

    Other than a clever title I am not sure you’ve got a point here.

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